CAD Forum

I'm going to take a minute or six to vent/rant about job hunting and the market. I'd love to hear if anyone has similar experience, feedback, or insight, but I've also prepared that this post may be just a scream into the void.

Find a job sucks, and the requirements employers put on candidates are ludicrous. Time and time again, I've run into the same issue, "you don't have the experience with 'x' that we're really looking for."

Every time, I'm thinking "yeah, because no one will hire me into a role that gives that experience." I'm still fairly early in my design engineering career, and I do my best to be humble, honest, and realistic; but it seems like I'm just getting punished for that. Do employers really want people who will lie to get a job? Also, why do employers think that an early career mechanical design engineer should have knowledge/experience in injection molding, machining, project management, manufacturing optimization, casting, design for assembly, coding, six sigma, material science, every CAD program under the sun, every FEA program ever, and every ERP system in existence? Seems like employers either don't know what they want, or are over-specing the role...

For example, injection molding (IM) design. I understand the principles and limitations of IM design. I know given the opportunity, I could design something around that process, but would have corrections to make when taking to the IM engineer; wouldn't nearly everyone? Just because I haven't had the opportunity to do this, doesn't mean I'm not capable, but without the opportunity to demonstrate this, employers are just dismissive. Additionally, the design engineer's purpose is to design for the purpose of an object, the IM engineer collaborates with the design engineer to find a middle ground between the design's functionality and compatibility with IM manufacturing; why make it a hard limit that your design engineer HAS to have experience with design for injection molding?

Speculation:
My sense is that employers have started to dilute their own talent pools. It's not clear to me how this started, but I have a sense I know what happened. Employees started to realize they could jump from organization to organization for rapid pay raises and/or career growth, because their present employer couldn't or wouldn't compete. Then employers started to realize, "with so much turnover, we need to hire people that can be 100% in a few weeks." Such a short turn around is a farce, unless someone's been working in the exact industry for decades, it's going to take months to grasp 100% of the new role (maybe 80% is achievable in a 90-180 day window). Since the mentality is to have people come in and go to 100% immediately, they "need" people who have the exact experience required, even for ENTRY LEVEL positions.

This is detrimental to both sides and I'm guessing is going to be a race to the bottom. I'm guessing most people lie to a fairly substantial degree if they're going in cold, but more likely what is happening is people are getting hired based on nepotism and then "faking it" to get by.

Back to software for a minute:
Let's chat about requirements for experience with specific software. This irks me quite a bit since the barrier to entry to get experience in any given software could be $10k+ USD or just not available for individuals at all! Someone with 5-10 years experience, sure they may have touched a few different programs here and there, but someone with 1-3 years experience, why would anyone expect that you'd have experience with AutoCAD, Solidworks, ANSYS, Windchill, PDM, Creo, Teamcenter, etc.? I get that aptitude is a difficult thing to judge/assess, but again, if the opportunities are limited by having prior experience, then how do you get the experience at all???

Conclusion (for now):
I wish I could do something about this that wouldn't absolutely destroy my professional image, but I know if I confront employers in a public way about it, it would make it 1000x more difficult to get a job. I view this as an inherent problem with the professional realm, and find it extremely frustrating to deal with. I hope that I'll find the 'right' employer someday soon-ish, that will offer me a role based on what they see me as being capable of, not what I have experience with...

Yeah... I'm pushing 60 and I have a ton of injection mold design experience. I've been looking for a job for 3-4 years, and I had one interview (2 years ago) for which I was WAY over qualified. Other than that, I can't even get interviews. I think @the_h4mmer's analysis is way off. Employers have so many applicants that they can be choosy and only look at people with the exact experience, because anybody else is just gonna quit in a couple weeks anyway. With all of the punk kids playing employers against one another, I can't blame employers, but they should definitely have a look at someone older and more stable. (oooh) I get mad at the news when I hear them spout $#!+ like "everybody who wants a job has a job". Or talk about hiring "disadvantaged people" and talk about white males as the cause of everyone elses problems. I should put a picture of a black trans woman on my resume, I'll bet I'd get interviews just based on that, damned quota-filling SOBs.

By the way, when employers ask for a laundry list of things, they are looking for experience in that field. You don't have to have experience in all of them (anyone who says they have it is lying), they're looking for experience in any of them. Experience with ERP means they want to know if you've worked in an engineering department doing anything but the lowest level work. @the_h4mmer you talk a lot about lying on resumes/interviews. Is that something you're accustomed to doing? Do you think that's ok?

I get inundated hourly with recruiting emails and calls and text messages from everywhere, especially India. Recruiters are absolutely without ethics. They spam all kinds of jobs and misrepresent everything they send out. Everything from hair dresser to civil engineering.

Anyway, I've never had problems getting work before. But then I've never been ~60 before. I've got as many hours on the software as anyone, and a lot of experience with different manufacturing processes. I can work remotely. And I'm not a punk @$$ kid who's gonna whine that the company doesn't have a sauna and a 4 day work week. I'm not gonna have a baby and take 6 weeks off paid on you. I'm not going to demand your health insurance pay for an "addadicktome". When am I going to retire? I guarantee I'll be working longer than any 20something with no experience will stay at your company.

Well on injection mould design I can give some background.

Realistically you would be trained for several years before you are much use, probably 4-5 years before you are really good. So you would need to find someone willing to spend all that time training with the real possibility you will leave after you have been trained.

rumpus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:02 am ...I had one interview (2 years ago) for which I was WAY over qualified. Other than that, I can't even get interviews.

If you're getting so many recruiting messages, why do you think you're not able to get another interview? For me, I get the occasional recruiting message, but not often for the type of role I'm looking for. The ones I'm after are usually guarded by an applicant tracking system (ATS), that looks for a highly specific keyword/phrase ratio match from your resume to the job posting (laundry list and all); which results in either a no response or quick a rejection notice.
As a side anecdote, I spoke with someone who works at a company I've applied to many times, they told me that 10-20 years ago, you could blindly apply to any job and get contacted by 3-5 additional hiring managers. Now, if you apply blindly, you'll likely receive a rejection notice within a day or so and never hear from anyone, even if you're 100% qualified from a job...and the same person I spoke to told me they have a difficult time getting new people via HR! Talk about shooting themselves in the foot...

rumpus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:02 am I think @the_h4mmer's analysis is way off. Employers have so many applicants that they can be choosy and only look at people with the exact experience, because anybody else is just gonna quit in a couple weeks anyway.

I understand your point, but contest that my assessment versus your own is an issue of which side struck first. My take is that employers started to ease off on investing in their employees to benefit their bottom line, causing some to start getting more mobile, of course it certainly could have been the other way around; truthfully it's impossible to know which happened first. The tricky part is that employer's reaction was to invest less and try to get people who could plug into a job quickly, since they figure that people are going to leave quickly; I've heard of some popular engineering companies having a project start with one group of people and end with an entirely different team; that's not good in my opinion. I'm speculating (from a point of ignorance) that if employers had instead invested in their people, employees would be less mobile and requirements for new roles wouldn't be so highly specific or lengthy.

rumpus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:02 am With all of the punk kids playing employers against one another, I can't blame employers, but they should definitely have a look at someone older and more stable.

It's interesting that you think kids are 'punk' for playing employers against one another. Why is that bad? Looking at it from a purely economic standpoint, they're maximizing their income from the start, so that would objectively make sense. From a business standpoint, I can't imagine employers would do anything differently if the situation was reversed. Now, I would see a problem in situations where someone starts a job, but then immediately leaves for a better offer, that's a different story in my opinion since they've committed.

rumpus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:02 am By the way, when employers ask for a laundry list of things, they are looking for experience in that field. You don't have to have experience in all of them (anyone who says they have it is lying), they're looking for experience in any of them.

I can appreciate that, but when the role is for something entry level (less than 3 years in the field), why should there be a laundry list of requirements? I'm still early in my engineering career, but I've been working for a few decades, so I'm not new in that sense, but I finished school in my early 30s and now struggle to find reasonable design work because employers are looking for 1-5 years of experience for entry level jobs, with that laundry list of experience. I've worked as a field technician and have experience in the construction industry, so I'm no stranger to 'putting in the time.'

rumpus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:02 am @the_h4mmer you talk a lot about lying on resumes/interviews. Is that something you're accustomed to doing? Do you think that's ok?

I don't do lie and I don't think that's okay, and that's part of why I think I'm having issues with getting a role, because I won't lie. Like you said earlier:

rumpus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:02 am anyone who says they have it is lying

I suspect a lot of people are lying to get the job, which is not helping either side of things. Maybe I've been not doing a good job assessing which skills/experience employers are more likely to prioritize, but so far, a lot seem to want a check next to every item on the list...

RichGergely wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:18 pm Well on injection mould design I can give some background.

Realistically you would be trained for several years before you are much use, probably 4-5 years before you are really good. So you would need to find someone willing to spend all that time training with the real possibility you will leave after you have been trained.

The experience being sought wasn't for designing the molds (if that's what you meant), but for designing products that use IM; apologies if I misunderstood your statement. I understand that considerable experience is needed to be good/quick with respect to that design methodology, but how does one get that experience if no employer is willing to offer it? Your last statement touches on at least one point I was trying to make, if employers don't invest, then they'll drive away employees. But for a second, let's assume that's irrelevant, then how would someone like me get experience for IM design?

Could I reach out to an IM shop and say, "hey I'm interested in learning design for IM, I'd like to be an intern for you so I can learn, but I have a full time job, so I can only help out nights and weekends." Knowing what I do about most fab shops (which isn't all that much), I'd presume that wouldn't really fly. I could read about IM design or sign up for a course in IM design, but neither of those are work experience, which is what employers are looking for...this is where I'm confused and admittedly frustrated...open to suggestions tho

the_h4mmer wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:03 am The experience being sought wasn't for designing the molds (if that's what you meant), but for designing products that use IM; apologies if I misunderstood your statement. I understand that considerable experience is needed to be good/quick with respect to that design methodology, but how does one get that experience if no employer is willing to offer it? Your last statement touches on at least one point I was trying to make, if employers don't invest, then they'll drive away employees. But for a second, let's assume that's irrelevant, then how would someone like me get experience for IM design?

Could I reach out to an IM shop and say, "hey I'm interested in learning design for IM, I'd like to be an intern for you so I can learn, but I have a full time job, so I can only help out nights and weekends." Knowing what I do about most fab shops (which isn't all that much), I'd presume that wouldn't really fly. I could read about IM design or sign up for a course in IM design, but neither of those are work experience, which is what employers are looking for...this is where I'm confused and admittedly frustrated...open to suggestions tho

Getting some basic training/experience. It is really tricky, you could offer some services for free and it might not be lost that you only work nights and weekends.

Assuming you read and look at videos and get a fairly good understanding of the basics of injection moulding and a mould tool. What you could do is offer some detailing for free for mould tools. Some shops want absolute minimum = water(cooling) and assembly GA with overall sizes. Other shops want every plate detailed out (other than the machined geometry of the moulded part).
Assuming you are half competent at CAD they should be able to give you a previous detailing job and say we want the same for this one (as long as it's not too complicated )

I think perhaps you need to change your approach into job finding. I've never ran into these issues, but I've never really had to search for work, work seems to find me.

You also perhaps need to do a better job convincing your employers. Experience is certainly a factor when hiring, but it goes both way you know. Someone with too much experience is often a lot harder to "train" then someone with a fresh white page. Learn to sell yourself.

the_h4mmer wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:54 am If you're getting so many recruiting messages, why do you think you're not able to get another interview?

Pay attention. It's the age thing. Relevant experience in the 1990s? Geez, must be OLD.

rumpus wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:59 pm Pay attention. It's the age thing. Relevant experience in the 1990s? Geez, must be OLD.

Unfortunately I would have to probably say yeah it's age. Companies like 'Young' designers. I would guess, after about 55 it will be getting hard to get a standard designer job - 55 and above you may be getting limited to a design office manager jobs where you sit at a desk all day doing quotes/paper work/meetings and then handing out the work to the designers.

Crazy world.

Have you thought about setting your own business up and doing freelance work? (it is what I do).

RichGergely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:52 am Getting some basic training/experience. It is really tricky, you could offer some services for free and it might not be lost that you only work nights and weekends.

Assuming you read and look at videos and get a fairly good understanding of the basics of injection moulding and a mould tool. What you could do is offer some detailing for free for mould tools. Some shops want absolute minimum = water(cooling) and assembly GA with overall sizes. Other shops want every plate detailed out (other than the machined geometry of the moulded part).
Assuming you are half competent at CAD they should be able to give you a previous detailing job and say we want the same for this one (as long as it's not too complicated )

I like this idea, and will definitely give it a try! Thank you

AlexLachance wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:59 am I think perhaps you need to change your approach into job finding. I've never ran into these issues, but I've never really had to search for work, work seems to find me.

You also perhaps need to do a better job convincing your employers. Experience is certainly a factor when hiring, but it goes both way you know. Someone with too much experience is often a lot harder to "train" then someone with a fresh white page. Learn to sell yourself.

I have iterated on approach quite a bit, and done quite a bit of research as well. "Selling" oneself or "convincing" potential employers can ride a very narrow line between confidence, over-confidence, and straight up misleading; I tend to the confident end, but make sure not to oversell. What you're saying isn't exactly wrong, but it is very subjective and in my opinion, touches on the issue of people valuing over-confident statements versus precision.

AlexLachance wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:59 am Someone with too much experience is often a lot harder to "train" then someone with a fresh white page.

Read in context with your other statements, this is quite out of place (at least to me, so maybe it wasn't intended for me?). If experience is what needs to be conveyed, then this would undercut that point. When it comes to growth, I'm eager to learn and more importantly, to understand where I'm wrong. I do communicate this, as I do appreciate the fact that it's impossible to teach someone who already knows everything.

rumpus wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:59 pm Pay attention. It's the age thing. Relevant experience in the 1990s? Geez, must be OLD.

I only asked as I did not presume that was the sole reason, as I do not know the entirety of your circumstances, and was curious to hear your observations. From my understanding, professional convention is to leave only ~10 years of relevant experience on a resume, unless you're aiming for a very senior position; for the exact reason you cite. Perhaps it would help to try this (if you haven't yet)?

the_h4mmer wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:40 am I like this idea, and will definitely give it a try! Thank you

Sent a PM about possible work

the_h4mmer wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:48 am I have iterated on approach quite a bit, and done quite a bit of research as well. "Selling" oneself or "convincing" potential employers can ride a very narrow line between confidence, over-confidence, and straight up misleading; I tend to the confident end, but make sure not to oversell. What you're saying isn't exactly wrong, but it is very subjective and in my opinion, touches on the issue of people valuing over-confident statements versus precision.

Why can't you be confident AND precise? Overselling only happens when you're forcing yourself upon the employer, if you end up catching their attention and interest with what you have to offer, then they're the one often trying to "overbuy", to see how far it can go, that's where the line is very narrow between confidence and over-confidence.

Read in context with your other statements, this is quite out of place (at least to me, so maybe it wasn't intended for me?). If experience is what needs to be conveyed, then this would undercut that point. When it comes to growth, I'm eager to learn and more importantly, to understand where I'm wrong. I do communicate this, as I do appreciate the fact that it's impossible to teach someone who already knows everything.

The statement wasn't intended directly at you, it was more of a general one. It also depends on the perception of the person doing the hiring and what they are looking for.

I have a lot of knowledge, I am autonomous, billingual, and very creative. I don't search for jobs for experience, I search for jobs that look for what I have to offer.

Can you sell yourself to yourself?

AlexLachance wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:35 am Why can't you be confident AND precise? Overselling only happens when you're forcing yourself upon the employer, if you end up catching their attention and interest with what you have to offer, then they're the one often trying to "overbuy", to see how far it can go, that's where the line is very narrow between confidence and over-confidence.

The statement wasn't intended directly at you, it was more of a general one. It also depends on the perception of the person doing the hiring and what they are looking for.

I have a lot of knowledge, I am autonomous, billingual, and very creative. I don't search for jobs for experience, I search for jobs that look for what I have to offer.

Can you sell yourself to yourself?

Consider a different perspective perhaps, I'm facing the industry and employers as someone with little experience; objectively (2-3 years design experience). It's not an easy exercise, but think back to when you didn't know what you do now, and when there was much more that you didn't know you didn't know. I have an awareness that there is a great deal of things beyond my knowledge or understanding, yet one thing I do know is that I can say and mean one thing, while a hiring manager can interpret that to mean something very different. I can say, "I have experience modeling/working-with x, y, or z" truthfully, but it wouldn't mean I'm very good at it or should call that 'experience.' I sell myself to others, as I am. If/when I don't know, I say so. The issue I run into is that when I do that, employers don't seem interested, because they're looking for some number of years of experience designing for x, y, or z processes; by avoiding misrepresentation, they're uninterested.

Yes looking for jobs that want what you offer is one way to approach things, but looking for experience, knowledge, challenges, and growth is what I'm after. It's also a search for opportunity. Part of the reason I lack the experience, is because I haven't been in a situation that offered the opportunity to design for these processes (or have been very minimal). I'm also seeking a role where there are others with more experience and knowledge than myself, people I can learn from, confer with, and receive meaningful criticism from; so far my design experience has been one of solitude. I'm the sole design engineer, which means I have very little/few feedback mechanisms regarding improving design or even mentorship. I can learn a lot on my own, but it's also slow going and easy to end up in the territory of Dunning-Kruger when operating in such a way (which I'm doing everything I can to avoid).

the_h4mmer wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:57 am Consider a different perspective perhaps, I'm facing the industry and employers as someone with little experience; objectively (2-3 years design experience). It's not an easy exercise, but think back to when you didn't know what you do now, and when there was much more that you didn't know you didn't know. I have an awareness that there is a great deal of things beyond my knowledge or understanding, yet one thing I do know is that I can say and mean one thing, while a hiring manager can interpret that to mean something very different. I can say, "I have experience modeling/working-with x, y, or z" truthfully, but it wouldn't mean I'm very good at it or should call that 'experience.' I sell myself to others, as I am. If/when I don't know, I say so. The issue I run into is that when I do that, employers don't seem interested, because they're looking for some number of years of experience designing for x, y, or z processes; by avoiding misrepresentation, they're uninterested.

Yes looking for jobs that want what you offer is one way to approach things, but looking for experience, knowledge, challenges, and growth is what I'm after. It's also a search for opportunity. Part of the reason I lack the experience, is because I haven't been in a situation that offered the opportunity to design for these processes (or have been very minimal). I'm also seeking a role where there are others with more experience and knowledge than myself, people I can learn from, confer with, and receive meaningful criticism from; so far my design experience has been one of solitude. I'm the sole design engineer, which means I have very little/few feedback mechanisms regarding improving design or even mentorship. I can learn a lot on my own, but it's also slow going and easy to end up in the territory of Dunning-Kruger when operating in such a way (which I'm doing everything I can to avoid).

I'm not that old either friend, so my perspective is similar to yours. I came in this job, as my first job, I said I'd be able to take on implementing 3D, even though I had never done it, because I knew I'd be able to. Of course, I didn't have all I required when I said I'd be able to, but that is for them to provide me the appropriate tools for me to be able to do my job correctly, if it is what they desire.

I came in this company straight out of school, started working on AutoCAD, developped the codification we'd use for 3D, then proceeded to take care of the transition internally.
We needed to figure a way to send the information to our ERP, I didn't know how to do it, but I knew I could eventually come up with a solution that would work, which i have and we use since.
We needed to build a structure for our 3D, so I came up with something very similar to the Skeleton Sketch, but that lacks all the advantages of the skeleton sketch. I had a skeleton sketch, but it wasn't inside a part that was inserted at other places. It was inside the beam's trailer, which was the "start" of the assembly. Then we eventually transitionned and rebuild our entire structure to use the Skeleton Sketch.

Don't be scared of the unknown, if you know what you're capable of.


One last thing!

the_h4mmer wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:57 am I have an awareness that there is a great deal of things beyond my knowledge or understanding, yet one thing I do know is that I can say and mean one thing, while a hiring manager can interpret that to mean something very different.

Use that to your advantage then! Clarify what you mean, the lack of clarity can go both way. If they don't truely see all you have to offer, then that leaves room for you to clarify and sell yourself. If they misinterpret and see way more then you are offering, nothing stops you from clarifying to them either. People like confident people who can be precise.


Edit: Perhaps this could interest you:
http://cadforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=187 ... 6dcc80115d

AlexLachance wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:30 am I'm not that old either friend, so my perspective is similar to yours. I came in this job, as my first job, I said I'd be able to take on implementing 3D, even though I had never done it, because I knew I'd be able to. Of course, I didn't have all I required when I said I'd be able to, but that is for them to provide me the appropriate tools for me to be able to do my job correctly, if it is what they desire.

I came in this company straight out of school, started working on AutoCAD, developped the codification we'd use for 3D, then proceeded to take care of the transition internally.
We needed to figure a way to send the information to our ERP, I didn't know how to do it, but I knew I could eventually come up with a solution that would work, which i have and we use since.
We needed to build a structure for our 3D, so I came up with something very similar to the Skeleton Sketch, but that lacks all the advantages of the skeleton sketch. I had a skeleton sketch, but it wasn't inside a part that was inserted at other places. It was inside the beam's trailer, which was the "start" of the assembly. Then we eventually transitionned and rebuild our entire structure to use the Skeleton Sketch.

Don't be scared of the unknown, if you know what you're capable of.

I'm not adverse to the unknown, it's actually what I'm interested to explore! There is a difference between having the experience and knowing my capabilities, from an employer's standpoint. On the cynical side of things, I'd say they're looking for someone they can plug into a position with no training and no ramp up time, because they figure everyone is going to jump ship in a short amount of time (which becomes a self-fulfilling eventuality from my standpoint). For me, that makes it very difficult to go anywhere that will allow me to explore the unknown to learn and grow my design experience. I appreciate the advice tho

I was looking for a job in the past 3 months.
I've profile on Indeed. The invites I got were ridiculous. General labor, CEO, machinist, etc. They're just shooting in the dark.

Frederick_Law wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:37 pm I was looking for a job in the past 3 months.
I've profile on Indeed. The invites I got were ridiculous. General labor, CEO, machinist, etc. They're just shooting in the dark.

So did you take the CEO job?

This is probably going to come across as harsh, and I don't intend it to. I'm not very good at communicating my thoughts, so please understand I'm not attacking you. I know nothing about you, so take these as generic recommendations for anyone reading this post.

What is your general work demeanor? Are you the guy who shows up early and stays late. Do you volunteer for special projects because you know it will increase your knowledge and value, even though it may mean working a few weekends? In my experience, hard work and a great attitude never goes unnoticed. Co workers are much more likely to take time out of their schedule to help you if they see you putting in the effort. If they think you are coming to them for help because you are lazy and want them to do your job for you, that's not going to turn out well.

What are YOU doing to increase your experience? If mold design is your thing, are you reading and learning everything you can from open source material? When you walk into an interview, can you bring a portfolio of work you've done outside of your job to show your serious about being the best mold designer you can be? If it were me, I would take an old remote apart and reverse engineer all of the plastic inside. Then I would design molds for all of those parts. If the budget exists, I would 3d print the molds and test their effectiveness with a cast resin. I'm sure there will be many mistakes made along the way, but that is part of the education.

I am a big proponent of the idea that we are responsible for what happens to us in this lifetime. Others can put obstacles in our way, but it is our job to overcome them.

I'll chime in a little here I think. The age related bias exists. I think it's primarily financial, and also because the recruiters are young, and are intimidated by older people. They can get away with paying kids with no experience very little, and have to pay 50+ employees a lot more. There's a big difference in the quality and sophistication of the results, so you really need a balance of experience and energy.

After one job ended, I had the "benefit" of some career counseling. The counselor was 23, covered with tattoos with pink and green hair and too many piercings to go through a metal detector. And she was going to counsel me on professional demeanor. What do you say in a situation like that? Who gave her that job?

I'm finding I do a lot better when talking to people face to face, which is a bummer for an online business. If they can see you don't have a sleepy eye, using a cane or doze off every 5 minutes, I think that makes a difference.

And don't get me going about agencies. They send me applications for barber work, burger flipping at Sonic, community manager at a retirement home... If you try to apply, the website is often busted. It used to be that recruiters were people, and they could understand what you were looking for. I get swarms calls from India all about the same time every day. Usually 3-4 people calling about the same job.

Job fairs are much better. Real people involved. Don't get me wrong, I love technology, but for all of what is claimed to be AI out there, there is very little that resembles intelligence.

Here is little bit of my experience
I dont have faculty so basically i am insufficiently qualified for this kind of job. I started as machinist after my high school and i advanced to position of mechanical engineer where i am right now.
I worked at three companies , and i presented myself good enough to start to work immediately in all of three companies.
I never told anyone that i am hardworking guy who works 24h a day , weekends etc , but guy who is thinking out of the box , and who is fast learner , and is ready to push forward.
Each of employers were kind of amazed what i have accomplished with learning of my own experience.
I am always ready to make things easier and faster and i think this is what employers value.
I am always ready to learn more. I started with mold design , and currently i work only with sheet metal.
I believe there are people who actually appreciate worker who is more ready to sit and think than put all of his time and energy to "template" work where you click click click without thinking.
Maybe i ve had luck in my life , but i always found job easy even i dont have "formal" knowledge.

matt wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:07 am there is very little that resembles intelligence.

We are not intelligent enough to understand AI intelligent.
It's like try to show an ant how to use iPhone.

Glenn Schroeder wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:30 am So did you take the CEO job?

I didn't. I was tempted, just go there for 3 months and give everyone a raise and bonus

SPerman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:53 am This is probably going to come across as harsh, and I don't intend it to. I'm not very good at communicating my thoughts, so please understand I'm not attacking you. I know nothing about you, so take these as generic recommendations for anyone reading this post.

I don't read this as harsh at all, honestly it's very level and much appreciated.

SPerman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:53 am What is your general work demeanor? Are you the guy who shows up early and stays late. Do you volunteer for special projects because you know it will increase your knowledge and value, even though it may mean working a few weekends? In my experience, hard work and a great attitude never goes unnoticed. Co workers are much more likely to take time out of their schedule to help you if they see you putting in the effort. If they think you are coming to them for help because you are lazy and want them to do your job for you, that's not going to turn out well.

I subjectively believe I am this person. Generally I am the first in and last to leave, to the point that coworkers ask if I ever go home. My experience has been the same, generally hard work and a good attitude are generally recognized, but how does one convey that when you're trying to get into an organization (let's assume before they speak to any of references, if they contact them).

SPerman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:53 am What are YOU doing to increase your experience? If mold design is your thing, are you reading and learning everything you can from open source material? When you walk into an interview, can you bring a portfolio of work you've done outside of your job to show your serious about being the best mold designer you can be? If it were me, I would take an old remote apart and reverse engineer all of the plastic inside. Then I would design molds for all of those parts. If the budget exists, I would 3d print the molds and test their effectiveness with a cast resin. I'm sure there will be many mistakes made along the way, but that is part of the education.

As a point of clarification, one of the things that was being sought was experience with designing for injection mold products, not the molds specifically, however I see value in learning that side as well. To be honest, I know that I could spend more time, but I'm also trying to balance against personal life/relationships, rarefactional time, volunteer work, and my health. I do spend several hours a week researching, reading, watching videos, and recently thought about the exact example you mention (taking the remote apart) as a means for practice. I was also contacted by someone who offered some assistance with learning on the CAD side for mold design, so I've been doing that as well as I'm eager for the knowledge and experience. There's a lot to juggle and I'm working thru that, but I do know that the biggest thing that people are looking for is professional experience and a lot of that seems to be limited by the grace of opportunity, which tends to be gated by experience.

SPerman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:53 am I am a big proponent of the idea that we are responsible for what happens to us in this lifetime. Others can put obstacles in our way, but it is our job to overcome them.

I agree with this philosophy to a point, as there is no universal answer to every circumstance (except 42). There can be systematic issues that limit one's ability to overcome obstacles. In these instances, there are still options but it can run into the complexities of moral/ethical choices (which I grapple with). I do not subscribe to the 'fake it until you make it' mentality because my view is that it's a misleading tactic to obtain opportunity, I will be upfront and precise about my capabilities as it's the right thing to do and mitigates risks for both parties.

matt wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:07 am I'll chime in a little here I think. The age related bias exists. I think it's primarily financial, and also because the recruiters are young, and are intimidated by older people. They can get away with paying kids with no experience very little, and have to pay 50+ employees a lot more. There's a big difference in the quality and sophistication of the results, so you really need a balance of experience and energy.

I don't question the presence of a bias in any direction, but it only makes my observations more frustrating. If employers want people with experience, there would be a bias towards those that are older since they would objectively have more experience. If they want people with high-energy, there would be a bias to younger employees that would tend to be more eager. Each preference comes with a trade off, but it seems that employers don't or can't recognize/accept that fact. This is where I see a problem and the source of my aggravation.

matt wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:07 am After one job ended, I had the "benefit" of some career counseling. The counselor was 23, covered with tattoos with pink and green hair and too many piercings to go through a metal detector. And she was going to counsel me on professional demeanor. What do you say in a situation like that? Who gave her that job?

Professional demeanor can mean a lot of different things, appearance is not the be all end all. I'm aware that people tend to be judged on appearance, but there's a lot more to operating professionally. In that same situation, I would listen more than I would say anything, since if they got this role there must be a reason; I'd be trying to learn what that reason was. Was there any benefit to the counseling? Do you think this individual was able to convey reasonable, useful, or novel information regarding professional demeanor? Sure, they may not have looked the part, but that doesn't mean they didn't have the information; of course it would be a different story if all they spoke about was appearance.

matt wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:07 am using a cane or doze off every 5 minutes, I think that makes a difference.

As someone who has mobility issues and uses a cane, this is extremely disheartening to read. My hope is that it's not widely the stance that people or organizations take.

matt wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:07 am And don't get me going about agencies. They send me applications for barber work, burger flipping at Sonic, community manager at a retirement home... If you try to apply, the website is often busted. It used to be that recruiters were people, and they could understand what you were looking for. I get swarms calls from India all about the same time every day. Usually 3-4 people calling about the same job.

Job fairs are much better. Real people involved. Don't get me wrong, I love technology, but for all of what is claimed to be AI out there, there is very little that resembles intelligence.

I find it comical that organizations complain about not being able to find good people since this is the hiring reality they have constructed. Again, my perspective is that companies are looking to reduce costs but find the 'best' talent quickly, which pits multiple goals against each other and results in stagnation.

Lapuo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:17 am Here is little bit of my experience
I dont have faculty so basically i am insufficiently qualified for this kind of job. I started as machinist after my high school and i advanced to position of mechanical engineer where i am right now.
I worked at three companies , and i presented myself good enough to start to work immediately in all of three companies.
I never told anyone that i am hardworking guy who works 24h a day , weekends etc , but guy who is thinking out of the box , and who is fast learner , and is ready to push forward.
Each of employers were kind of amazed what i have accomplished with learning of my own experience.
I am always ready to make things easier and faster and i think this is what employers value.
I am always ready to learn more. I started with mold design , and currently i work only with sheet metal.
I believe there are people who actually appreciate worker who is more ready to sit and think than put all of his time and energy to "template" work where you click click click without thinking.
Maybe i ve had luck in my life , but i always found job easy even i dont have "formal" knowledge.

I'm glad to hear your experience has not been like my own! I tend to convey the same things about myself, but the reception has not been as positive for me. I will say that having experience in the machine shop is a considerable boon. My experience professionally wasn't very straightforward, as I tried multiple industries and jobs before deciding to pursue engineering. I did seek formal education and thought having the education coupled with technical experience, it would put me ahead of others fresh from school, but it was not since the experience wasn't directly related.

The job market has changed significantly and continues to do so rapidly. I think mid-level professionals have a much different experience than entry level or senior professionals. I think it's especially different in the case of someone like me, who's at the age of a mid-level professional with entry level experience. That being said, I do leverage a lot of knowledge from my previous roles outside of engineering, which is a value that is extremely difficult to substantiate to a perspective employer.

Also with all those online jobsites, employers got overwhelm with applications. I've seen job post with 100s applied.
We need to make our resume standout from everyone else. The old resume format doesn't work anymore.

We'll need a metaverse and NFT as resume

Frederick_Law wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:53 am Also with all those online jobsites, employers got overwhelm with applications. I've seen job post with 100s applied.
We need to make our resume standout from everyone else. The old resume format doesn't work anymore.

We'll need a metaverse and NFT as resume

Yeah, I've browsed a few jobs around PDM/CAD admin. The ones that require "onsite" would have one or two applicants. The "Remote" jobs would have 30+.